TL;DR - why do we need so many terms? can we all not use just a simplified pronoun system (as explained below, or if someone else comes up with something better), and can we stop adding a sexual preferences as a part of gender, as that is something too personal in my opinion?
I primarily want to understand how it relates to a person’s identity.
Before starting, let me partially introduce myself. I am a male, and If I get my terms correctly, I am possibly Aero Ace. I am (possibly) coming of a privilige that my percieved gender identity is same as that of what I accept myself to be. Also, I have not read any literature or watched much content about this stuff. I am not asking anything about why would someone have a “different gender”. I just want to understand how it relates to you as a being.
And before going ahead, I am not sure gender is the best word or not. If it is not, please correct me. And I am sorry in advance in case I say stupid or bizzare or straght wrong stuff. Please forgive me if possible.
Also I am quite ramble-y, so reading and understanding what I write may be hard, or non-sensical, so pardon me for that too.
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Try to understand my perspective, I have almost never mentioned my gender to anyone. Possibly it is because my “attire” says it. Or maybe it is because I am not a very social person, or the fact that I have never had a “personal” conversation with some other person. My general conversational idea is how it goes with siblings - slightly informal, a lot of stupid slander, and jokey stuff, and the actual stuff. If someone comes to me, and mentions there gender, I kinda do not know how to process it. because as I understand, 1 part of gender ideentity is what “orientation” (sorry if it is a bad way to put it, but I want to mean how they dress, or how they want to adressed as) and another is sexual preferences. I understand that If I know there gender, I can atleast address them as they prefer (also I do not know how to do it in general. I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed). But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
I understand that one reason to have some words for it is inclusivity. If, for example, we want some group to better assimilate with society, and we want to do some “positive discrimination” (I do not know if this is appropriate wording or not, what I mean is for example, reservations, or some other kind of actions to integrate some people in society), then we would need some terms to make rules with. And that makes sense, but then again I feel that revealing your preferences is a bit too revealing. Am I overblowing this? I also understand that completely ditching the sexual part from gender might not be possible today. It would probably require a more accepting society. For example, in most places, gay marriage is still illegal. I do not know why laws have to have laws defining marriage (it may have something to do with subsidies going for marriages, or definitions of families/spouse being used by insurance companies or any other banking system, where your spouse also gets certain benefits/rights), or gay adoption is illegal, but can we not make something like - any reasonable person/s can adopt anyone (where reasonable part is just to maybe seculde criminals, or people with prior histories of child related offences, or if they are not financially stable - but all this is very separate discussion)
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
edit - moved my summary to the top as tl;dr
The short of it is: western society has been pretending human behaviour is simple and easy to understand for ages, but can’t anymore, and that’s leading to a fight over how to think about it all.
Homosexuality was viewed as a choice. Gender was viewed as natural rather than cultural. Criminals were just evil. Addicts were just irresponsible. Etc. Etc. In the last century, the democratization of expression and the shift to individualism has shattered that illusion of homogeneous simplicity.
This combines with a primitive delusion of semantic authority (this word has a specific defined meaning, and it is the one in the dictionary/my head) so that people think the object is determined by it’s descriptors rather than the descriptor is defined by its context. People hear a word (e.g. man) and assume all the common entailments are mandatorily part of the definition. (e.g. penis, taller and broader than average, likes to have sex with women, likes to hunt/fight/sport, wants to be a father and provider, insert other cultural signifier of masculinity here) So, when someone sees a word being applied to someone, but doesn’t feel like the definition in their head matches, they feel it’s wrong. (e.g. He likes men. That doesn’t match my definition of ‘man.’ Could my understanding of the word ‘man’ be wrong? Of course not. They must be something else. ‘You there, stop calling yourself a man. You’re not.’)
The current battle is a battle to define what the next concensus will be for the definition of various words. Traditionalists want to go back to a more familiar way of defining things. (e.g. It had a penis at birth? Man. And he better act like one.) And they are willing to happily ignore the preferences of people who don’t feel like that definition matches theirs. Neogenderists (for lack of a better term) believe something is wrong with the gender concepts and want to change them, whether that means adding one neuter gender, adding 100 genders, limiting us to the traditional two genders but removing physical sex as a characteristic in favor of just the cultural elements/secondary characteristics, or seeking to abolish gender entirely. Some people are interested in making the language match people’s self-conceptions, some are not.
And all of this is still in flux. Who knows which group will be most prominent in 10, 20, 30, 100, or 1000 years? We could have a time in the future where people will die to fight for the idea that there are exactly four genders, ‘man,’ ‘woman,’ ‘human,’ and ‘steve,’ differentiated mostly by hair color, with entailments regarding preferences for spicy foods, appropriate toenail length, and room temperature, and that the people who want to dye their hair are transchromists. We’d all like to believe humanity would have the wisdom to avoid it, but looking around doesn’t inspire much hope.
Sorry to do this: If you are unsure if you are an aero ace, just check how many confirmed kills you have with your plane. If you downed 5 or more hostile military planes you are an aero ace, also known as flying ace.
I am sorry to report commander, but I have no kills yet. I am definitely not an ace.
Those are rookie numbers. Gotta pump those numbers up
Aye, Aye sire!!!
It’s important to learn your definitions.
Aro ace: Aromantic, asexual.
Aero ace: Shot down five other planes in war while flying a plane.
Arrow ace: Acquired every skill known to man by spending five years on an abandoned island, most of which wasn’t actually spent on the island.
I see it like colours, there is an infinite amount of colours, but it makes sense to have a name for the common ones.
Yeah, no.
For that we already have names, they’re called “names”. I have no problem with someone wanting a different pronoun, I have no problem with even a single pronoun for anyone not wanting to fit in the him/her, but all the types wanting a special pronoun njust for them to me is just an attention seeker wanting to feel special.
If you want a (semi) unique word to refer to you, THEN THAT WOULD BE YOUR NAME. I would just refer to you by your name, that’s how languages work.
The entire “but MEMEME needs a special pronoun” is friggin annoying and the behavior has pushed a lot of people into the right. Yes, this having me as the source, but the amount of people I’ve seen hating on the special pronouns and getting more right wing really made this a topic that doesn’t do what you think it does. I think it’s harmful.
Please, can you just be like everyone else with your pronouns? If we have three sets, say, him, her, and xer for those not wanting to be lumped in with guys and girls… We’d be fine, most people would be fine with this. No more “I want my special snowflake pronoun to be special and awesome” please pretty please.
I think the problem is that people don’t want to be just “other”. Because that’s what “xer” is.
I am cis and straight, so I don’t have full comprehension of what it feels like not to conform to the norm, but even I understand that if we have only one other pronoun, like “xer”, it’s just saying “the one that isn’t the norm”, and it doesn’t matter if you make it sound like one of the other “normal” pronouns. That doesn’t normalize it. It just silently, yet officially and publicly reaffirms its abnormal quality.
We have to realize that there’s obviously a floating spectrum here, and people don’t fall into predefined buckets sometimes. Some do, but some don’t.
The human brain is built and evolved into a categorization machine. What is edible, what isn’t. What is attractive, what isn’t. What is safe, what isn’t. Black and white, good and evil. We want it simple, and we get confused, afraid, and angry when it isn’t simple. This is something we must recognize about ourselves, and really work hard to go against if we want to evolve our way of thinking.
This is clearly evident in the way you express yourself here.
THEN THAT WOULD BE YOUR NAME
MEMEME
friggin annoying
Please, can you just be like everyone else
most people would be fine with this
my special snowflake pronoun
Your anger and fear of the complicated shines through much brighter than you might think. I think it’s time you sat down and had a big, long thinking about who you want to be and what you really want to say.
Much love to you, and thank you for opening yourself up.
the amount of people I’ve seen hating on the special pronouns and getting more right wing really made this a topic that doesn’t do what you think it does. I think it’s harmful.
those people are going to hate no matter what. pronouns aren’t driving them mad, they’re already nutbags.
Nah
People get influenced all the time to change their opinions and attitudes
I think that the pronouns thing from a few years back did a lot of damage and pushed a lot of people to more right wing ideas. It’s stupid, of course, it’s an annoyance at best, but it has helpt right wing talking heads to have easy material to lure unsuspecting viewers in
I do think neopronouns can be confusing, but it takes literally no effort to use it.
If you really must not use it you can just use singular they, or the person’s name.but it takes literally no effort to use it.
In written text form? Absolutely. It’s easy to adjust sentences/correct details before hitting submit.
Verbal conversations? I don’t think it’s fair to say it takes no effort… maybe it’s from ADHD, but simply using they/them reliably took an embarrassingly long amount of time. Neopronouns are a whole different challenge for my ADHD-autopilot’d mouth that’s already struggling with forming coherent sentences.
Of course I’m not saying we shouldn’t respect their preferences…I just wanted to add my perspective on the ‘no effort’ part.
I don’t usually like to use specific terms to define myself, but to me it’s easier to say: “bisexual agender” than: “I don’t actually fit into the gender roles nor identities, and I also like a lot of different people, but not always. Also I sometimes feel inclined to a gender, but never enough to say ‘I’m that’”. You know, like a TL;DR.
Also, I’ve known different types of people who need definitions and certain terms:
- People starting to explore their identities and want to know if there’s someone somewhere that feels/understand the same.
- People that will invalidate feelings and will not believe things unless there’s more people telling them that they exist (doesn’t always work).
- I, because I’m lazy and specific terms save me some time when I don’t want to explain the whole thing, but it’s enough for others to look up.
I’m pretty sure there are more reasons, but you need to understand that external people will try to negate anything that’s not “written down”. And to add more context, there are some terms I haven’t even seen in person or known, but whatever, I respect that. I hope categorizing is not needed in the future. Unfortunately, there’s still backlash, hate and violence towards the community, with or without “weird” words, you can be targeted just because of your looks or your personality.
P.S.: some people may not need to specify their preference/identity, but that may be because theirs is seen as “normal”, that’s a whole other discussion.
I don’t think the weird pronouns or identities like “I’m a blue black dragon born in Azeroth” make any sense to me whatsoever but it takes me zero effort to use whatever the person prefers so even if it doesn’t make sense to me I’d rather not go out of my way to make a person sad, especially someone who I have no idea what they’re going through in their own lives. We all got our own shit and the world would be a better place if people could just not be assholes to each other about the little things.
We all got our own shit and the world would be a better place if people could just not be assholes to each other about the little things
If only everyone would get that. Thanks!
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
That’s perfect. Many people struggle with this, myself included, but if you make an honest effort to address people by their preferred pronouns, then you’re doing great.
Lots of great responses here. I just want to add my own reply to your question “why do we need so many terms?”: Specificity.
Any sufficiently matured field, subject, or activity will naturally accumulate more varied and specific terminology so that discussions around it can be more nuanced.
This applies to literally everything, however specifically in the context of identity and sexuality it is very important for people to be able to express themselves and feel like they have been heard and understood.
Firstly, I think you’re conflating gender with sexual identity. Gender isn’t covered by any of the LGBTQIA2+ initials; it’s important (to some people) to inform someone of upon meeting them, because it usually relates to their preferred pronouns, and if someone appears outwardly male but prefers to be referred to as ‘They’ (or any other combination of gender + pronoun), that needs to be disclosed. You’ve probably never felt the need to do this because (as you state) you’re male and you identify as male and your outward appearance is male, so I’m going to assume you’ve never had anyone misgender you, but not everyone is so lucky - or privileged, you might say.
But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
This is just how the English language works. Personally, I’ve never met anyone who got upset if someone used a gender neutral pronoun (though I understand those people do exist). If you want to make it easy on yourself, just use They/Them for everyone; English just happens to not be too well-equipped for this, and it can cause confusion in some contexts (singular vs. plural, or when trying to single a particular person out of a crowd). Some of the other pronouns that you’ve probably heard were an attempt to create a singular gender neutral pronoun but none have really stuck in wide use.
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information.
This is likely because you’re ace. If you had a sexual interest in someone, you might be interested to know what gender they preferred.
I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender.
We don’t. This is separate from gender. The only letters in the LGBTQIA2+ acronym that relates to gender is T, for Trans, and I for Intersex, but generally speaking trans people (who I’ve met, anyway) would prefer to just be known by their preferred gender in casual conversation, and intersex people don’t typically advertise that, either (nor should they need to).
As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
You don’t have to disclose sexual preference for either of those things, at least not where I’m from.
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
You say “Okay”, and refer to them by their preferred pronoun; it’s essentially the only reason it would come up in casual conversation. Again, there’s nothing sexual about gender. Gender and sexual identity are completely separate.
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
Over time, the acronym has evolved to be inclusive of more groups. That’s all there is to it. As an asexual person, you’re represented by the A (or the +). I have only a few times ever seen a shorter acronym used to specifically exclude some groups, and that shit was shut down pretty quickly by other folks who heard it. If you say “LGBTQIA+”, I highly doubt anyone will be offended or feel that you’re excluding them. (The + is indeed a general addendum meant to include anyone who is part of the community and wasn’t explicitly given a letter.)
Sexual orientation is not part of gender! In which way do you think it is?
I am sorry, but it kinda because of the cultural non separation of these 2 concepts in my mother tongue. I did explain it a bit more in another comment
Hm, where? I only saw you talk about gender vs sex, for which there is no difference in my native language either. And they certainly are closely related to the point where the majority of people identify as the gender corresponding to their sex.
However sexual orientation (such as “straight” or “gay” or “aroace” for example) is an entirely different thing as it describes your attraction to other people.
this is the comment chain - https://lemmings.world/post/28743360/16394388
Okay, to avoid confusion maybe I should use the same term you used, which is sexual preference, and not sexual orientation. This is what I’m talking about (from your OP):
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
The only one who talks about this in the linked comment chain is the other person, and only tangentially.
So, again I suppose, in which way do you think this is part of gender?
that was not the part of chain i wanted to refer to. Essentially, my native tongue (or culture in which I was raised), there is (was) no difference between sex and gender, as in, there were not separate concepts. What you guys would call a gender (and this is also partly based on interaction in this chain, where I even ask what does being a male even mean) - users preference of pronoun, or attire, etc is what I called orientation in my op (again, I also said in op that I do not know if that is correct term for it, and it was not).
the paragraph you have highlighted was the only part where I refered sex as sex (the one associated with your partner/s). Other than that paragraph, I mostly (I am guessing here, again, for me concept of gender is new and still fuzzy) meant gender.
I would apologise again for mmy lack of knowledge on this stuff, and this post has helped me understand gender better.
I’m a bit confused here. Sex and gender, in any language, refer to the equipment a person has (sex) and the way they present/identify (gender). It’s possible that in your language or culture, these two are conflated as they often are.
Sexual orientation, in any part of the world, refers to who someone is attracted to. It has nothing to do with their equipment or what the person’s gender is.
For example, a cis man (someone assigned male at birth who identifies as a man) can be attracted to men or he can be attracted to women (or both or any or none). The fact that that person likely has a penis and looks like a man doesn’t affect who he likes.
While there are cultures that might make assumptions about how men should like women and women should like men, you do seem to understand that that’s not how humans work, so therefore, you understand that someone identifying as a man or woman has nothing to do with who they like. You understand that gender =/= sexual attraction.
I guess I’m just unclear as to why you’re saying that in your culture/language they’re the same things, does your language assume that gay people do not exist? Do you use the exact same word for a man who likes women (eg a straight man) as you would for a woman who likes women (eg a lesbian)?
does your language assume that gay people do not exist?
pretty much. Many old folks consider it as a disease or mental illness.
Do you use the exact same word for a man who likes women (eg a straight man) as you would for a woman who likes women (eg a lesbian)?
That was not a thing, and hence it never had a word/s. basically someone born with a male reproductive part was male, other is female, and that is about it. A male was (is) expected to marry a female (love or arranged(where family finds “suitable” partners, and the bride/groom have little idea of other)).
Things have changed a lot for better in past 2 decades, but much of the “older ways” still remain as “traditions”.
I never confused sex and gender, as you describe them, as I said these do not exist as separate concepts in my natiive tounge. I used different words for them, which while not ideal, do convey the meaning. My questions were mostly regarding gendered pronouns, and having terms for different sexes (as in lgb of lgbt) or genders (t of lgbt), and why do even need terms for these, or why would one like to share it with others.
To preface all this, this is my nonbinary bisexual person’s opinion, not speaking for all LGBT+ people by any means
My first question is, why do we have so many terms? I know the answer is somewhat obvious, that everyone has there own preferences, and it may not align with someone else, so to identify themselves, they would get a different label. (kinda like names, if everyone had same names, it would cause confusion) But I also want to ask, Is using a label not somewhat alienating?
Some people like labels, some like to just be themselves. As a cultural difference I’ve noticed Americans like to divide people by different characteristic more, as a general rule, than people from other places.
I am an old school guy, I use they/them/their for people older than me (as a form of honorification), with small children (it is somewhat amusing, and also children like it when they get respeect) and whenever I do not know what gender a person is, or how does that gender prefered to be addressed).
Then great, you’re already doing well!
But this gave me the thought, that why do we not use the same pronouns for everyone (for example they/them), or maybe 2 pairs, one for formal, one informal, or 1 more pair, for singular and plural. Why do pronouns have to depend on gender?
I’m absolutely with you, my person, if it was up to me grammatical gender would be totally abolished.
The second part is sexual prefernces. I do not know much about sex or sexual preferences. I am a young adult, and have not had to know about this for any person that I have met yet. I have never had the interest to know about this for someone, neither have I retained this information. I understand that if you are looking out for partner/s, then you would have to share this, so we would have to use some words for it. But why do we have to keep this as a part of gender. As in, why would I want to share this information with my governments (who do census), or for my visa applications. Should this not just be something personal?
Yes, it shouldn’t be something the government cares about, neither should gender. Ideally they shouldn’t ask at all, but usually there is a ‘prefer not to say’ option.
If a person tells me their gender, how should I react/respond to it? Is my current line of actions appropriate (just address them with their preferd pronouns, and if I do not know that, use they/them; completely ignore the sexual part of it)
If respecting a non-trans person’s gender would be doing the same things, to you, then sure
Another thing that I want to ask is, why do some groups use different acronyms? I remeber hearing about this the first time, and the word used was LGBT. Then I heard LGBTQ, then LGBTQIA+, and today I heard LGBTQ2. I presume that since more people are getting aware, and they are trying to express themselves, they need some newer words, and hence the acronym would keep on evolving, if so, is it not a endless exercise? Am I being insensitive If I use one over other (for quite some time, I have been sticking with lgbtqia+, in hope that + means extensions, as in, others, so hopefully it is less excluding than others, but if that is not the case, please correct me.)
Even LGBT+ feels a bit unwieldy to me, and yes, the + already includes all the others so the extra letters are for sure unnecessary. I’ve heard GSM (gender and sexual minorities) as a shorter acronym that doesn’t single out any specific identities, that might be better. For sure, I don’t like using acronyms with ‘queer’ in them as some people get offended by that word and an inclusive acronym shouldn’t offend people or make them feel ‘othered’ or ‘unusual’ for their natural human variation.
