Look at what men are missing and how the right is selling it to them.

Men aren’t doing so hot right now, emotionally and mentally. They feel like they are not manly, and criticized for trying to be manly or liking manly things. There’s a lack of transitions into manhood, and the bar that is seen as a successful man with a good career is pretty much impossible.

If you have a poor paying job, you’re not manly. If you have a well paying job but it’s blue collar you’re not manly because you’re a dumb working stiff. If you have a white collar job you’re not manly because you’re not doing anything tough with your body. Maybe if you’re a CEO who owns the company but also does rock climbing and bear fighting are you seen as manly enough, maybe.

Then you have these guys, your Andrew Tates and so on, who act very manly and tell you it’s ok to be a man and then spout off some of the most toxic, asinine shit saying that’s how you be a man. And young guys fall for it because they aren’t shown any alternative.

Then on the left you have people who speak ill of men as a whole, and manliness as a whole. Sometimes the criticisms are correct, but a lot of times it’s presented as men overall. If you try to say that it’s not every man out there who’s a monster, you get blasted with criticism for saying “not all men”. They also don’t provide anything positive or solutions for feeling manly, with the best they can be offered is to be more like women.

So young men, especially young cishet men, are actively pushed away from leftist spaces, leaving them feeling demonized by those spaces, and actively pandered to by the right which are offering mind poison dressed up as solutions.

So what do we do? There’s a few things to fix.

1. leftist media has to stop demonizing men and start demonizing actions. Instead of saying “men are rapists” start saying “rapists are bad”. When people start to say things like “cis people are shit” other people need to call them out of it, because if you’re supposed to be the side that accepts people’s gender identity, it should be for all gender identities. It can feel cathartic to rail against the majority demographic, especially when people of that demographic have hurt you, but if you feel that it’s unfair to rail against a group because of the actions of a few members of it, that should apply to all groups. Things like “what’s wrong with the straights” doesn’t help build bonds with allies, and it turns young men away from leftist spaces.

2. there needs to be validation and recognition from the left for problems men have, like suicide, workplace death and heavier prison sentencing. The left needs to show that they are trying to fix these problems, too, instead of telling young men to suck it up and be a man about it because they are the oppressor demographic.

3. there needs to be people who counter toxic masculinity, not with telling men to be more like women, but with positive masculinity. If a man is having emotional or mental problems, toxic masculinity says to push that down. Femininity says it’s ok to be soft and vulnerable. Positive masculinity would say that a real man is true to himself and his feelings and expresses then freely, even if others might ridicule him for it. There’s a subtle difference, and the end result of femininity’s and positive masculinity’s tactic might be the same, i.e. the man expresses those feelings, but the way that they get there is very different. The former makes the man feel less validated in his identity, while the latter uplifts it. The memes where they say stuff like “I always tell my homies I love them before they go to bed” actually work.

4. leftist influencers need to make fighting for the rights of minorities seem manly. Badass. Like a hero. Worthy of praise and celebration.

5. while they won’t get the financial and political backing that the toxic male influencers get, there needs to be positive male influencers who talk about masculinity in a positive way, while promoting the ideas above. There needs to be an alternative, who acts manly but in the fun, positive way, that validates young men’s feelings of inadequacy, frustration, and isolation, while promoting an egalitarian perspective.

6. there needs to be a cultural shift in what makes a man. A shift away from dying in battle or becoming a tycoon, and a resurgence of the working class hero. Mass media itself needs to change and promote positive male figures. It can work and be popular, like in Avatar the Last Airbender. We need to show men that they are still men, and still worthy of love, respect and adoration, even if they aren’t a super soldier or a wealthy elite. A lot of this is counter to capitalistic goals, so it may have to be subversive, but eventually it needs to be made the norm.

7. other men need to continue to step up and speak out about injustice towards minorities and against toxic masculinity behaviors in the day to day, and start decrying those behaviors as unmanly. People need to call Andrew Tate and the like unmanly.

8. ideally, the men’s rights movement should be absorbed by the left and the toxic incels kicked out. It should be done in the name of gender equality. Fixing only woman’s problems won’t solve the patriarchy (which could be changed to a different term so everyone feels like it’s less of an us vs them) and feminists should try to help solve men’s problems directly rather than indirectly. Young men would see feminism as more appealing if feminists actually focused on men’s problems as well, rather than ignoring or worse, demonizing them. Feminism could be rebranded as an egalitarian movement for all sexes and genders, maybe get a name change. If the patriarchy affects everyone, then the focus should be on everyone. Maybe it would have to be a whole new movement entirely.

So it’s a larger problem than just getting more leftist male influencers, and some of those problems are systematic. Some can get worked on today. Talking about masculinity in a positive way, promotive equity, stop both their side and your side from bigotry, and, probably the thing that would get young men on board the most:

Actually trying to solve the problems young men are going through.

for most they are very disconnected from reality, mostly raised just what they see on the internet

Man it’s like the majority of people here don’t have ‘regular guy’ friends.

The way to get to regular dudes, is to make them feel fucking included. Yes, diversity is fucking awesome. Yes, having women in leadership roles is fucking awesome. But for your average guy… who do they have to look up to on the left side of things? In the news? In congress? Who is on the national stage for these things? Who is talking to those people?

There isn’t anyone. There are tons of people talking to other groups of people, but there has been flat out no courting of the white dude demographic outside of White Dudes for Harris (which was brilliant but came too late).

Speak to the issues these guys are facing. Talk about dating. Talk about career struggles. Talk about feeling alone, and feeling vulnerable. And then, talk about solution based problem-solving for these things.

Why do you think the right wing latched onto guys who do the whole personal betterment thing? It’s the same shit that white supremacist groups do. They’ll get you with things that anyone can agree with like ‘Hey man if you work hard you’ll succeed. I fucking believe in you when no one else will.’ Then they go into the right wing bullshit because now they have you at an emotional level.

There is no online left presence doing these things, and there are multiple right wing people doing this shit.

Make a left wing Joe Rogan, and bro-dudes will watch that shit like shit on velcro. But it has to be a dude-bro talking to them. It can’t be Rachel Maddow or AOC, it has to be someone who comes from that background.

humiliated by a new culture, economy and world.

So what can we do rhetorically and policy wise to win more young men over ?

Hmmm

Be nice and respectful to them and masculinity. Like “It’s masculine to protect the oppressed”

Don’t belittle anyone for that matter, such as based on race, gender or religions, even if you’re upset at that grouping.

The first thing is that progressives need to stop being intellectually dishonest. The movement needs to admit that the world view is a technocratic one in which the best course of action given the evidence available is the one that will guide the decisions of the movement, not popular sentiment.

As of right now the progressive agenda looks like a mass of contradictions whose only identity is opposition to MAGA and the right with such intensity that the right has in fact co-opted many of the stances that traditionally belonged on the left, losing the support of the working class.

Seen through a Marxist lens, it is not surprising, the progressive movement in the US is not a worker’s movement but rather a managerial class movement.

“Progressives” lost because they’re throwing all their weight behind a few big issues that are very disagreed with by the majority of the population - gender ideology, immigration, socialism/communism, at the top of that pile - and getting aggressive, instantly going to name calling and threatening violence, calling for censorship and “de-platforming”, and trying to get people fired and ruin the lives of at anyone who doesn’t blindly follow along.

The blue collar workers? Dems don’t give a fuck about them. White people? Bend the knee to everyone and apologise constantly or get fucked. Men? Fuck everything about you unless you identify as a different gender or are in the country illegally.

It’s really not surprising to anyone outside of the democrat bubble that calling half the country Nazis, bigots, and a half a dozen “phobes” is a bad idea. Also do you realise you’re just admitting to trying to “buy” election wins by essentially importing and bribing immigrants to vote Democrat? That’s another reason the democrats got annihilated.

As a mom of men, it has always concerned me that, while we were supporting our girls, we left our boys to flounder a bit. We spent so much time telling girls that they could do anything and they could be ‘just as good as the boys’ and talking to women about glass ceilings and ‘don’t let the man keep you down.’ What did we tell our boys or rather what did they hear?

This is all from the perspective of a non-american from a country where thankfully we are still liberal at heart and only entertain some progressive ideas, instead of buying it wholesale, meaning the right has yet to completely cannibalise the government over the mistakes of the left.

1. Move away from equity and return to equality of opportunity as the main goal. Equity demands lack of competition, and men love competition.

You can want everyone to receive equal opportunity and dignity, but people are not equal and will not end in the same place once the race is over. You can’t demand equality of outcome and onboard the most competitive demographic, there is a reason if the stereotype of leftist men is passive wimps. This is completely compatible with prgressive ideas, but it’s incompatible with progressive brains, apparently.

2. Actually understand what intersectionality looks like, stop treating it like a hierarchy of oppression.

The core idea of intersectionality is that each demographic has its own issues and they manifest differently if more demographics overlap in the same individual (e.g. sexism against white women vs sexism against black women exhibit different tropes and connotations).

This does not mean whoever has the least minoritary traits is the most acceptable target, that is some marxist “oppressor vs oppressed” horseshit and, while it was probably the intended idea, it is massively counterproductive and doesn’t have to be the actual application of the issue.

Men have issues that women don’t have, women have issues that men don’t have. As soon as your movement decides to prioritise one they have lost the other.

The reason this does not happen with race is that no movement in the US can realistically exist politically without white people simply by virtue of how huge the white slice of the demo pie is, and because this whole thing was started by highly educated, economically mobile, overwhelingly white, college grads who live in very specific coastal bubbles, hence the endemic hatred of farmers and factory workers, the actual working class of the US, as hicks and racists, and the lionisation of serving staff like baristas and waiters (the only working class most large city dwellers ever interact with).

3. Move away from “patriarchy”.

It’s just a fucking L on its face isn’t it? “Yes come join the party that thinks men being in power is the problem” fat fucking chance lol.

And when they do join, the parodies write themselves.

I don’t care if you think it’s “just a name” (especially in light of what progs consistently do over “just a name” and “just a statue” and so on) it’s a massive optics L that shows all of the horseshit about microaggressions and non-confrontational language and whatnot are entirely performative.

You have the most obvious othering language in the core ideas of the movement and then complain about microaggressions? And you wonder why people don’t take you seriously?

And while we’re on that:

4. Politeness is baseline, respect is earned. Confrontation is necessary and men are more likely to thrive in confrontational spaces.

You can’t have a political movement that does not tolerate dissent and confrontation, or only tolerates it in one direction. See the implosion of the “Unfuck america tour” as a good example of this.

The whole point of politics is to create a critical mass of people who align on some goal to push for it, you don’t have to agree with them on every point, if you had enough people who agree with you, you would be already in the majority and would not need to participate in politics.

Easy example from the last decade: TERFs.

Now, I don’t like TERFs, on account of them being radfems and thus automatically hostile to me due to the circumstances of my birth (i.e. penis), but you know what? I reckon they probably want women to have better salaries and fewer barriers to entry into professional fields.

Let them force themselves into political irrelevance if they refuse to play ball, don’t make a big fucking show of kicking them out of the movement, because then you end up on the back foot of having to explain “trans women are women” to the mass population and the TERFs simply need to say “look at these brainwashed biology deniers, they think males and females have no differences” and you end up eating your own ass in public, when the point is that trans women ought to be treated as women for their own good and a more welcoming society.

(side note: if you are in that brainless chunk of progs who do believe there is no difference between the sexes, I highly encourage you to look at the world records in any discipline with easily measured metrics such as 100m dash and freestyle swimming. Not a single male record is under the women’s record, in some cases every historical male record eclipses the current female one. Males and females are different, this should be acknowledged, and it should not be a barrier to equal dignity in treatment.)

A movement that can’t include anyone but the most in-line and pure of the ideological adepts is doomed to be irrelevant, and on that the progressives have an almost complete lock.

I don’t follow the media and the debate where you live, but over here left leaning politicians and media tends to frame it as: women, minorites etc have a problem. Men are the problem.

You’re basically pushing any undecided man over to the right.

Male stereotypes have to be culturally broken first. Men are being taught that showing any emotions other than anger and hate is effeminate. They’re being taught that empathy is weakness, that education is stupidity, that freedom is slavery.

Everything that makes men human is being stripped away, leaving a husk of burning hate awaiting marching orders. They need to reconnect to humanity.

Promote and get behind actual progressive candidates, not corporatist shills like Hillary or Kamala. I like Kshama Sawant because she calls shit like she sees it.

I don’t have any big answers, but just a small piece of advice: Don’t shame people for asking questions when they just want to learn.

I would think that’s the perfect opportunity to educate someone, but so many people will just down-vote a naive question and move on without explanation, which is even more confusing.

I’m speaking from my own experience. I still tend to be neutral on a lot of things so far, but my brain is kinda… unusual. I think most people might gradually feel pushed away, “othered”, etc. and eventually lean in the opposite political direction than you might want.

TL;DR: If you want people on your side, stop pushing them away. And maybe ask others on your side to stop too.

I honestly don’t think progressive politics is the problem. When it comes to the US. The only other party is the democrats and at best they are center at best but really they are just Republicans from 20 years ago. From a fiscal sense.

Both times they sold the American people to pick them just because the other side is worse. The problem is most people don’t want to pick the lesser of two evils. They want to pick something that will change their lives for the better.

The problem is when Democrats don’t really have a platform or communicate that platform effectively. But the other guy is saying he will fix the problems in people’s lives even if they are lies. Most low information voters will roll the dice on the chance he is not lying. Because the other side has brought nothing to the table at all.

The logic i have seen with a man like that broke my heart was this. He said i care about the plate of Trans folks and other minorities but like on an airplane you have to put on your own mask on first before you help others. So when you are out of work or can’t afford to live. The culture wars feels like less a priority for those type of people.

When looking with that lense it makes sense how people voted. People with higher education and income voted Dem becase they wanted to help others.

People with lower income voted Republican out of desperation and was easy for Republicans to sell the snake oil of. If we hurt these small group of people. All your problems will be solved. Then those same people are hurt more when they find out it was all a lie.

Read up on history and how Germany was after World War I. It’s like having a crystal ball of what’s going to happen next.

Christ - some of these replies are exactly what a lot of women talk about when we say that Lemmy has a misogyny problem.

Blokes really don’t recognize how much harder shit actually is for women, overall. It would be lovely to just sit on a bench for 5 mins without a stranger coming to chat me up, or if people would stop crediting men for my work when they don’t even ask for it.